|
|
Post by Chris on Jun 2, 2018 14:59:53 GMT
There was a very clever guy and great Bar Billiard player who invented a version of the 3 pin using snooker balls for FUN
He also invented a computer game of the 3 pin, link on here somewhere, wish I knew where ? Again for FUN
I believe Colin has some very sensible ideas re AEBBA 4 Pin rules for AEBBA 4 pin competitions. He should submit them as proposals to the secretary in writing with a seconder for the AGM in December 2018.
I believe DaveUK has some very sensible ideas re AEBBA 4 Pin, that lie in keeping with Sudbury/Suffolk 4 pin rules. He should submit them as proposals in writing with a seconder for the AGM 2018.
Everything else I have read just seems FUN variations of a game as we all do at times, in all counties. I agree with Tony, some of which for me has got out of hand and become personal, albeit disguised through so called humour.
This is a Bar Billiards Forum, a chat area, AEBBA.CO.UK is the site for AEBBA proposals for the AGM for all AEBBA members to discuss - may I state now it is not the AEBBA Committee that decide - it is the members, of which the committee are to, just members when it comes to a democratic vote.
(That though for me personally is another subject re democratic vote ... 1 member 1 vote is my mantra... but hey I digress as currently it is 1 vote per league.)
So as far as I see it the discussions have been had.
Proposals I assume will be sent to the AEBBA Secretary.
Some fun game ideas as described on here could be a good day out for some
|
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Jun 2, 2018 16:59:02 GMT
A poll not a good idea, then ? Or maybe mods would prefer for this discussion to ramble on.  A poll would serve no purpose in this case Tommo. I don’t mind discussion (that what a forum is for) but people must do it responsibly and without bullying or aggression. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2018 18:33:06 GMT
So - mixed signals now......
Chrissie says "discussions have been had."
Tony declines the poll but "doesn't mind discussions"
Further discussions possible in a civilised manner ?
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jun 2, 2018 20:13:59 GMT
Dear Clive
Please discuss what you wish. Healthy discussion is good in fact great!
I think Tony and I have made it clear that we want to stop is the distress it is causing some players with hidden meanings in posts/text.
I wanted to point out the appropriate routes re Rules and AEBBA, hence no poll.
Clive, there is a sensitivity to this subject and some are not aware of routes re rule changes as you are.
I stop nothing but I see no purpose in a FUN 4 pin with different rules, balls, pockets, unless under a separate thread that shows it is just fun. Or a new league forming.
Chris x
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2018 23:24:54 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by gandalf the untidy on Jun 3, 2018 7:52:43 GMT
Gandalf 5) i think you've got this one wrong completely. 16 names on a list right, all in order 1-16 and off we go. that means the 1st player always breaks off all the way to the final and 16th player never breaks off at all. well, I practice what I preach. and I've tried the changes - have you? I've let my friends try them and they don't care...where's the beer? part of the joy of making changes is that first you have to be attacked as a person for even being misguided enough to think you know a better way. that's why things get stuck. Gandalf, do you have any ideas on testing some ideas? i guess if this was to move forward to the AGM, it would carry a lot more weight if it could be said that we have tried and tested these changes etc etc. maybe a test league? I've suggested two tables in a room and just invite people along and as the day progresses different things are changed and votes are taken. There are two tables are at the Cock in Northampton usually. If you've got two tables down sarf we could do it there? Taffy 5 slight misunderstanding here Taff, In a round robin phase you may be playing 4 or 5 other players in a single leg game, losing the toss in all could mean you don't get 1st break in any of your games just trying to say it would be fairer if players ended up with an equal opportunity of breaks to make it fairer for both We've been testing ideas for the last 5 years in the 3 player Eastbourne summer 4 pin league most of my suggestions here are in the current Eastbourne 4 pin rules  you can check it out on the Eastbourne Sub board of Sussex Bar billiards |
|
taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
|
Post by taffy on Jun 3, 2018 9:13:33 GMT
what about swopping the white and red Gandalf?
how did each rule change go down?
Tommo, I didn't know the 100e was anything but a 'poplar' you live and learn hey!
what with 4-pin and Anglias I think you're in the wrong part of the country my ol bewty
taffy
|
|
|
|
Post by gandalf the untidy on Jun 3, 2018 19:09:29 GMT
player each what about swopping the white and red Gandalf? how did each rule change go down? Tommo, I didn't know the 100e was anything but a 'poplar' you live and learn hey! what with 4-pin and Anglias I think you're in the wrong part of the country my ol bewty taffy Swapping the red and white on the break does not affect us as we all go for the 50/50 break with and without success, one of our players always goes for the double 200 he did get 500 with 1 shot once, when one of us gets a 200 shot all those present (from both teams) give out a chear, the way it should be  The Eastbourne rule changes were discussed the all the team captains prior to implementation and we all agreed what would be best to make the game more fun, the interesting thing is that we changed the break rules to 1 ball must stay up after the three break shots to stop the reversed break shot, it cost me a fair few breaks because i had trouble remembering it but it made us think a bit more to come up with a safeish 1 up shot, normally i would play 3 x 50/50 and 1x 30/10 but had to come up with an alternate shot, we also kept the pegs about 6mm away from the holes to tempt players to play the high scoring holes off the back cush at lower risk, there were plenty of 200's attempted which has got to be good for the game  We also play 2 games per player each night, we have made it that the home player breaks first in game 1 to show the visitors which way is easier to break on any given table , the visitors then get the first break in the second game, the 50/50 break is a difficult shot and sometimes a player never gets it right all night but there is always a fall back break shot either 50/10 or 30/10 |
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Jun 4, 2018 7:55:21 GMT
Chroist, go away for the weekend and this thread has gone bonkers!
Why on Earth do people want to change the four pin rules whose opens are oversubscribed and successful when the three pin opens are dying around us?
Which one needs the rules altering??
Play and enjoy four pin from Suffolk and Norfolk for what it is, a different challenge where both players get frequent shots. If it ain't broke then don't fix it,
|
|
|
|
Post by bobhall on Jun 4, 2018 8:30:49 GMT
Chroist, go away for the weekend and this thread has gone bonkers! Why on Earth do people want to change the four pin rules whose opens are oversubscribed and successful when the three pin opens are dying around us? Which one needs the rules altering?? Play and enjoy four pin from Suffolk and Norfolk for what it is, a different challenge where both players get frequent shots. If it ain't broke then don't fix it, Sussex looks to be healthy |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 10:31:29 GMT
Swapping the red and white on the break does not affect us as we all go for the 50/50 break with and without success No reason not to consider it to level the playing field slightly for others who don't do the two fifties break. I thought you were advocating making the game fairer or 'more fun'.  To give an example, when I played Sav at Northants, in one frame I managed a losing score of 2000. We were both getting the break consistently and I matched him shot for shot elsewhere - the difference being his 150s versus my 70s on the break. He was pulling away from me at the rate of 800 points over a frame. (Fair play to him, awesome achievement winning the event.)Just supposing my 70s were instead 110s with the break balls reversed: The escape velocity of 800 would be reduced to 400 - the value of one good shot.  |
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Jun 4, 2018 10:39:25 GMT
Sussex looks to be healthy Nice to hear you still have 108 entries and a waiting list - or have you?? |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 10:41:15 GMT
Sussex looks to be healthy The stats for the year so far suggest that after a turbulent time the ship appears to be steadying........ Oxon 2016- 66 2017- 54 2018- 47 Surrey 2016- 90 2017- 60 2018- 59 Northants 2016- 61 2017- 51 2018- 62 Sussex 2016- 76 2017- 70 2018- 72 |
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Jun 4, 2018 10:58:19 GMT
Here you go - I think it illustrates that all Opens are dropping whatever the start point;  |
|
|
|
Post by gandalf the untidy on Jun 4, 2018 11:29:21 GMT
Swapping the red and white on the break does not affect us as we all go for the 50/50 break with and without success No reason not to consider it to level the playing field slightly for others who don't do the two fifties break. I thought you were advocating making the game fairer or 'more fun'. To give an example, when I played Sav at Northants, in one frame I managed a losing score of 2000. We were both getting the break consistently and I matched him shot for shot elsewhere - the difference being his 150s versus my 70s on the break. He was pulling away from me at the rate of 800 points over a frame. (Fair play to him, awesome achievement winning the event.)Just supposing my 70s were instead 110s with the break balls reversed: The escape velocity of 800 would be reduced to 400 - the value of one good shot. Sound reasonable tommo, though it might be a bridge too far at the moment |
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Jun 4, 2018 11:32:08 GMT
And just because I'm feeling mischievous and DaveUK1 liked the last one....  |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 11:39:00 GMT
Yes Tony, my stats go back as far as 2007 and show a steady decline as far as 2016, then a dramatic drop in 2017.
But - apart from Oxon - the flow seems to have been stemmed in 2018, Northants and Sussex entries being up.
The acid test will be Kent, with Bucks and Berks to follow.
Kent, bless 'em, are doing their best to swim against the tide, offering an alternative comp for those outside the Top 50.
|
|
|
|
Post by NigelS on Jun 4, 2018 12:05:23 GMT
Just regarding the opens bit, I think we need to take into account that we have more opens now than ever before, and whereas the average number of players for opens may be lower, the aggregate numbers over the year may not have fallen by as much. I think for instance back in 2004 only 4 opens were held (we are now up to 10 plus 2 4 pin events). We may have reached a saturation point here.
This may indicate that people are choosing which ones they can enter, entering all may not be an option for many. This of course may be affecting the financial viability of each open and only the stronger ones will survive. Maybe then a solution is that some opens pair up and hold an event on alternate years if they are willing to share, this may be the only way of keeping some running longer term.
I think that maybe a more sensible avenue to go down. I am not sure why we have to change the rules of the game as a first resort......I am sure players were running tables out for the last 10/20 years (people havent just started running the tables out in the last couple of years) and players were going to opens...I seem to recall a certain Oxon open in 1999 that had a few run outs and BIG scores....
|
|
|
|
Post by bobhall on Jun 4, 2018 12:34:46 GMT
Sussex looks to be healthy Nice to hear you still have 108 entries and a waiting list - or have you?? Sav which open had 108 entries or are you still in holiday mode as the 4pin open didnt have it |
|
taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
|
Post by taffy on Jun 4, 2018 13:55:17 GMT
How do people feel about the 200 being just a lose of break the first time? a good player can keep getting 200 until he mucks up and from then on it'll be a sin nisi which we are all used to. when you're behind and you've got to pull one or two special shots out, I'd like to see that it doesn't cost your total score. I t seemed to resonate with one or two of you?
a typical shot would see the object ball down and a red 'flushed out' stop near the hole ready for the next shot.
just an idea? it really might be best tested over a period of time that one?
Taffy
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris_Sav on Jun 4, 2018 13:56:42 GMT
Nice to hear you still have 108 entries and a waiting list - or have you?? Sav which open had 108 entries or are you still in holiday mode as the 4pin open didnt have it Try looking at the Sussex web site around 2004 and 2005 to start with, I think you will find you had the full limited 108 entries, not that long ago to have lost a third of your entries! East Anglian 'Minor' Open was capped at 64 how many 'major' singles opens will get significantly more? |
|
|
|
Post by gandalf the untidy on Jun 4, 2018 13:59:02 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by "Silent" on Jun 4, 2018 14:08:29 GMT
I love the point scoring, little digs and sniping that this thread is full of. Must make people looking in think this is really a game I want to get involved in.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Jun 4, 2018 14:36:03 GMT
I love the point scoring, little digs and sniping that this thread is full of. Must make people looking in think this is really a game I want to get involved in. Hmmm...I think we're all on the same side really Matt. It should be a subject for friendly banter and a little bit of realism. I think you're reading between the lines too much! |
|
|
|
Post by barbelman on Jun 4, 2018 16:18:32 GMT
And just because I'm feeling mischievous and DaveUK1 liked the last one....  True....  |
|
|
|
Post by gandalf the untidy on Jun 4, 2018 16:48:27 GMT
No reason not to consider it to level the playing field slightly for others who don't do the two fifties break. I thought you were advocating making the game fairer or 'more fun'. To give an example, when I played Sav at Northants, in one frame I managed a losing score of 2000. We were both getting the break consistently and I matched him shot for shot elsewhere - the difference being his 150s versus my 70s on the break. He was pulling away from me at the rate of 800 points over a frame. (Fair play to him, awesome achievement winning the event.)Just supposing my 70s were instead 110s with the break balls reversed: The escape velocity of 800 would be reduced to 400 - the value of one good shot. Sound reasonable tommo, though it might be a bridge too far at the moment Heavens above tommo i wouldn't have beleived this of you "to suit some players to the detriment of others" |
|
|
|
Post by gandalf the untidy on Jun 4, 2018 16:56:06 GMT
I love the point scoring, little digs and sniping that this thread is full of. Must make people looking in think this is really a game I want to get involved in. Hi Silent, Glad to see someone new commenting though disappointed on the content, perhaps as a relative new comer to this version it would be good to hear what you think on the original discussion points |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2018 17:56:57 GMT
Heavens above tommo i wouldn't have beleived this of you "to suit some players to the detriment of others"Please explain this comment Gandalf as "me no understandy". You have quoted your own post (to which I gave a 'like') so I am not sure of the gist. |
|
taffy
Distinguished Member
Posts: 514
|
Post by taffy on Jun 4, 2018 18:41:43 GMT
going back to what you said at the end of Page 3 tommo about a poll. I can't agree with that? i reckon as little as 6 people are involved here. it isn't enough. Gandalf has got a finger on the pulse!
my most important point would be to get rid of the delay waiting for a ball.
for that end I said that we chouls be able to play the next shot as the ball is certainly in the hole and because it isn't black and white this one I simply seuggest that the new shot should not touch the old shot.
then there is either two reds which is quite radical but why not? and then there is 'any ball'?
any thoughts on it os as i suggest, have a game or 7 with two reds.
In the absense of fresh ideas we need to sort out everything that has been suggested and have a game or two with the ideas? anybody think of a pub with two tables?
Taffy
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jun 4, 2018 18:51:16 GMT
Actually I found Tony's off topic interlude quite refreshing - bit like having some intelligent adverts between programmes on TV or something 'lite' inbetween the long and often Heavy posts on this thread, bit like receiving a gift to make you smile-  Anyway....to be myself - Tony I think a Bar Chart would show decline/increase more easily. Most Opens were cut at 96 as the maximum entries ( Sav is right there was a Sussex one where it was extended to 108 with reserves but that was from 96 ) Sudbury 4 Pin is capped at 64 therefore their entries year on year have been and are 100% as a bar chart Sussex if capped at 96 would be 2016 - 79% 2017 - 73% 2018 - 75% showing a decline in 2017 and on the up this year The others could easily be worked out. |
|
